Diskuse k šabloně:Slovanské jazyky

I have a problem with the Template on Slovanské jazyky on Česká Wikipedie. Namely the data on the so-called Serbo-Croatian language is not portrayed correctly. Namely – in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia the official language was Serbo-Croato-Slovene, so by that political doctrine the Slovene language should also be under the Serbo-Croato-Slovene cap. That was the official state of language affairs up to 1941. (1939.)

What I wanted to say is this. This complete business with the so-called "Serbo-Croatian language" is much discontinued because that artificial language came into being with the two manuals of orthography printed in 1960 and sponsored by the two (as we could now call them) non-governmental societies – Matica hrvatska and Matica srpska.

Why artificial? Because the communist regime and its dictator created a language that mixed some words of the Croatian literary language with some words of the Serbian literary language, the ratio and the way these words were mixed have never before existed in any orthography manual. Furthermore Croats decided to opt-out of that "language in the process of creation", and very early so.

(Note: Earlier notices of Croatian or Serbian (way more preferred name in the 19th century) were in fact works published by the Croats who at that time expressed their POV on the matters of (by them preferred) unity of all South Slavs. Croats insisted on the Illyrian language, as a way of intermediary language between South Slavs, but it is not known that any noticeable and important Serb wrote about Illyrian language or called it that way.

This is why these early notices of Croato-Serbian cannot be considered as a basis for some artificial language that was pushed onto the Croats and Montenegrins by the unitary and revolutionarily internationally basis of the Communist Party that steered then socialist Yugoslavia.)

Also, not all nations were named as the "speakers" of that language with one name and two faces. Namely, only Serbs, Croats and Montenegrins were proclaimed as "speakers". Bosnia and Herzegovina is and was a three nation state of Croats, Serbs and Muslims, and Muslims were not named as the "beneficiaries" of that "language" (not in the Novi Sad, that is).

Also if we want to be completely dedicated to sources and claims of official documents, then it is clear that Serbo-Croato-Slovene was proclaimed as the official language of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and that in the "new" Yugoslavia (the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia) proclaimed four official languages (Collection of documents of ASNOM, AVNOJ document № 3 (№ 18) in Macedonian language).

Montenegrins were not considered a nation by the royal Cincar clique during the period of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, their nationhood was obtained during the WWII, and especially after. Muslims gradually gained their nationhood during the constitutional reform in 1968-1971 (sixth torch in the federal Coat of arms was added in the Constitution of 1963). The standard language of Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) was proclaimed to be the Bosnian language (in 1993.), Montenegrin language as the language of Montenegrins and those citizens of Montenegro who call it Montenegrin, was named after the name of the country and constitutionally sanctioned as official in 2007.

How can those two languages (I mean Bosnian, and also, Montenegrin) be part of some "language of Yugoslavia", as it was called by the uninformed media and academia in some parts of the World?!

Do you know that the Socialist Republic of Serbia (1963-1990) and the Republic of Serbia (1990-2006) were the only two states in the World that constitutionally called their official language (during indicated period) – Serbo-Croatian (original: srpskohrvatski). What was the content of that language, what were the "facts" about it? Plain and simple, it was Serbian language masked under the name(s) of some political programs.

(Note: Why plural? Because of the past connotations of that name(s), Croato-Serbian, Croatian or Serbian, Serbian or Croatian, Serbo-Croatian, those names signified different approaches to Illyrianism and Yugoslavism, and South Slavism, and there are varieties of those "programmes" called Austro-Slavism, Pan-Slavism and Neo-Slavism.

One of those who at one period of time supported Pan-Slavism was even Stjepan Radić who advocated that the intermediary language for all Slavs should be Czech. Those were very strange times, and cannot be compared with the present time as simple as that. Serbia for instance was then known internationally as Servia (even in 1907) in diplomacy and also common use.)

The one and only federal Yugoslav institution where Serbo-Croatian was constitutionally official ― was JNA, and that time span was limited, it lasted from 1963 to 1971. (Amendment ХLI, section 4 (July 8, 1971).).

→Prehistory:

Croatian or Serbian (Croato-Serbian) – when it was just an imaginary name for the Croatian language, at the time authors of those publications and monographs were obsessed with the idea of different kinds of Pan-Slavism. Those authors did not represent anybody but themselves. They were Croats or politically Croatian. The language they "named" was in fact Croatian language. Nobody gave them right to decide, they acted on their own.

So, we can divide the Serbo-Croatian into three :
(1) Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (known after 1929 as the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) proclaimed Serbo-Croato-Slovene. This was not really Serbo-Croatian, since it was discontinued from its prehistory. It was valid officially up to 1941 (1939), but in fact its use never was (in reality).
(2) Communist era of Titoism and the rule of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia over all aspects of human life in then socialist Yugoslavia (consisted of six socialist republics and two socialist autonomous provinces). This was a mixed-up era, when up to the 1963 Constitution, the Federal People's Assembly used four languages (the Serbian language, the Croatian language, the Macedonian language and the Slovene language). This was agreed upon on January 15, 1944 by AVNOJ on the basis of AVNOJ decisions of November 29 and November 30, 1943.
(3) Slobodan Milošević's Serbia, as well as after his deposition in October 2000, and extradition in April 2001, the Republic of Serbia continued to officially use Serbo-Croatian as its constitutionally named language. As late as November 2006, Serbian is proclaimed the constitutionally official language of the Republic of Serbia.

No country other than Serbia had as its official language – "Serbo-Croatian" (with the Orthography manual published by Matica srpska in 1960). Bosnia and Herzegovina had differently defined constitutional language, as well as Montenegro.

Therefore, the template (Šablona) cannot claim on the basis on some false pretences like the term "Macrolanguage" that the three languages are one language. Namely, the term (Macrolanguage) is unknown in terms of General linguistics (opća lingvistika). This is why cs:wiki should not support this kind of formating (description). Thanks. -- Bugoslav 22. 9. 2010, 18:30 (UTC)

Na české Wikipedii bylo vždy zvykem uznat srbochorvatštinu jako nadřazený jazyk pro chorvatštinu, srbštinu, bosenštinu, černohorštinu. To, že se vám to nelíbí, je pouze váš problém. Dokud nedodáte zdroje, že česká Wikipedie jedná nějak špatně a že srbochorvatšitna neexistuje, pak budu hájit stávající stav - neboli srbochorvatština je nadřazena nejen srbštině a chrovatštině. Pro mě jste pouhým vandalem, když jste bez jakéhokoliv vysvětlení toto dosavadní rozdělení atakoval. Dnes jste se pokusil o první komunikaci a až si jí přečtu, rád na ní budu reagovat ... Palu 22. 9. 2010, 22:59 (UTC)

OK, zatím jsem si po přečtení nevšiml jediného odkazu na jediný směrodatný zdroj, tudíž do dodání alespoň nějakých zrodjů vašich tvrzení budu vaše změny v šabloně revertovat. Nemůžete si dovolit prostě tvrdit nějaká tvrzení, která nemáte vůbec nijak potvrzená. Díky za pochopení. Palu 22. 9. 2010, 23:02 (UTC)

Odstranil jsem "knaanštinu" zcela ze šablony. K tématu bylo obšírně diskutováno u stránky lešon Kenaan a měl jsem dojem, že diskuze vyzněla v tom směru, že "knaanština" skutečně není samostatný jazyk. Příslušný článek, který jsem z velké části editoval, jistě není dokonalý a potřeboval by doplnit, nicméně v zásadních bodech se myslím opírá o relevantní zdroje. Na druhou stranu zahrnutí "knaanštiny" jako samostatného jazyka se podle všeho opírá pouze o portál Ethnologue, který je ovšem v tomto bodě podle všeho nepřesný (opět viz diskuze u lešon Kenaan).--Vrata 17. 12. 2010, 13:54 (UTC)

1)Jestli je knaanština samostatným jazykem nebo ne, není věrohodně doloženo. Jedni tvrdí to, druzí ono a nikdo je nerozsoudil. My to za ně dělat nebudeme. Navíc je ve zdroji uvedeno, že seriózně z pohledu slavistiky jazyk/dialekt nebyl zkoumán, tudíž o to víc nelze soudit, jak to je. 2) Tato šablona obsahuje i významný dialekt zámurštinu, proto jsem byl toho dojmu, že významné dialekty v šabloně být mohou. 3) pojem židovská staročeština, který jste použil, není doložen (aspoň ne tím online zdrojem, který jste uvedl). Palu 17. 12. 2010, 15:06 (UTC)

Taraškevica

Přeji dobrý den, nepronikl jsem plně do editace šablony, ale jestliže uvádí i vymřelé jazyky, neměla by tím spíše obsahovat i taraškevicu, variantu běloruštiny? Děkuji a jsem s pozdravem, --Lukáš Král (diskuse) 30. 12. 2021, 17:59 (CET)